&quot;Close-Up&quot; with Joseph McCaffrey Interviewing Bob Dole on the Nixon Presidency and Vietnam

Transcription (Scripto)

Read Full Text Only (TXT)

Extent (Dublin Core)

28 Minutes, 51 Seconds

File Name (Dublin Core)

c031_072

Title (Dublin Core)

"Close-Up" with Joseph McCaffrey Interviewing Bob Dole on the Nixon Presidency and Vietnam

Description (Dublin Core)

Joseph McCaffrey interviews Senator Bob Dole on the show “Close Up” where they discuss topics including disability rights, the Nixon Presidency, the war in Vietnam, its impacts on the home front, and what Bob Dole’s general impressions are on the state of America and its people.

Date (Dublin Core)

1970-05-10

Date Created (Dublin Core)

1970-05-10

Congress (Dublin Core)

91st (1969-1971)

Topics (Dublin Core)

See all items with this value Vietnam War, 1961-1975

See all items with this value Prisoners of war--United States

See all items with this value People with disabilities--Civil rights--United States

See all items with this value Budget deficits--United States

Policy Area (Curation)

Armed Forces and National Security

Creator (Dublin Core)

McCaffrey, Joseph

Record Type (Dublin Core)

radio programs

Names (Dublin Core)

See all items with this value Dole, Robert J., 1923-2021

Rights (Dublin Core)

http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/CNE/1.0/

Language (Dublin Core)

eng

Collection Finding Aid (Dublin Core)

https://dolearchivecollections.ku.edu/index.php?p=collections/findingaid&id=84&q=

Physical Collection (Dublin Core)

Collection 031, Box 2

Institution (Dublin Core)

Robert J. Dole Institute of Politics, University of Kansas, Lawrence, KS

Archival Collection (Dublin Core)

Dole Audio Reels Collection, 1960-1979

Full Text (Extract Text)

(Introduction music)

Joseph McCaffrey: Welcome to “Close Up.” I'm Joseph McCaffrey, and my guest is the junior senator from the state of Kansas, Bob Dole. Republican Senator Dole is a much-decorated veteran of World War 2 in which he served for five and a half years, being wounded twice, spending 39 months in military hospitals. The senator won his AB and LLB degrees from Washburn Municipal University at Topeka. At the age of 26, he was elected to the state legislature. Then he was elected 4 terms as Russell County Attorney, serving until he was elected to the House of Representatives in 1960. Eight years later, in 1968, he was elected to the United States Senate. As a member of the Senate, he has been active as a leader of the conservative wing of the party, took the lead in backing Judge Harrold Carswell for the Supreme Court, and he's often mentioned as a possible candidate for one of the Republican Senate leadership spots in the new Congress, the coming 92nd Congress. The Senator serves on the Agriculture Committee, Public Works Committee, the Select Committee on Small Business, and the Senate Committee on Hunger, and in one minute we'll meet Senator Bob Dole of Kansas.

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Advertiser Narrator: And when men get hurt, Red Cross is there.

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Advertiser Narrator: What's Red Cross service to the military all about? Helping guys like Irvin Dane is what it's all about.

McCaffrey: Senator Dole, you were handicapped as a result of World War 2, and you've been very active over the years in trying to help the handicapped. Do you think that we're doing enough for those who have handicaps?

Dole: I think we're making a better effort. Unfortunately, it takes a war, I guess, to really emphasize the needs of handicapped Americans, when we stopped to consider that about one out of five Americans, has a physical, or an emotional, or mental handicap of some kind, it indicates the gravity and the scope of the problem, so I made my first speech in the Senate about handicapped Americans, and I followed up this year on the same day, April 14, which is an anniversary date that I was wounded back in 1945. So, in some small way, we hope to be able to stress the need for continuous action with reference to handicap. Also, the great potential handicapped Americans have. I don't really believe I'm handicapped, but I do have some physical limitation. Now and I think there are many other handicapped Americans who have great potential and great ability, if only given the opportunity.

McCaffrey: We have to break down the prejudice, don't we? How are we doing in that field?

Dole: Well, as I've said many times, we've gone through an era where we put people on one part of the bus and other people on the other part of the bus. Many handicapped can't get on the bus at all. We find many handicapped Americans have no access to restaurants or hotels or public buildings because of architecture. So, I think we must, first of all, I think through efforts not only people in public office but public service programs, people throughout America, rich, young, black, white, young or old, makes no difference. We need to emphasize the great potential handicapped have. They’re not offensive. They can work. They can do about anything a normal human can do.

McCaffrey: You were sworn in as a member of the United States Senate in the same month Mr. Nixon was sworn in as president. First of all, how do you think you're doing and how do you think the president's doing?

Dole: Well, I would guess on balance, I'm doing all right, though of course this will be tested again in 1974. I would also think on balance, the President is doing an excellent job. I've been a strong Nixon supporter. When I can't support the President, I don't remain quiet, but I try not to make it a head on attack. I don't question the president's motives in any area. I sometimes question the way things do happen in the White House or in other agencies, so I would guess, I would give him very high marks and I'd give myself passing marks.

McCaffrey: How much advantage did you have coming in as a freshman Senator because of the fact you had House experience?

Dole: Oh, I think it's invaluable. I think anyone who comes in from maybe a governorship or some statewide office, or from literally just off the street, comes in at a great disadvantage, and I say this because I know most every Republican and Democrat House member. Having been there eight years, you develop some strong friendships, not based on politics, but just based on men and women. So, I would say it was invaluable, and it's been helpful to me as a senator to go over on the House floor, a visit with Democrats and Republicans, my friends about issues about problems and just to maintain the friendship. It may be more important later on, and when you find many senators who may not know any more than their own delegation or their counterparts on some committee in the House, so I find it a great asset and very valuable.

McCaffrey: Senator, for the last many days, it seems to me as if there's been a pall hanging over the capital because of the Southeast Asian problem. What do you think of our going into Cambodia?
Dole: Well, I hope, first of all, it was the right choice. And again, I certainly have every confidence in the president's motives and the effort. I do have, and I've said so publicly, some reservations. I've yet to have the assurance I need that, first of all, it's the effort in the Cambodia was to protect American troops, and secondly, that it will mean about bring about Vietnamization on schedule or ahead of schedule. Now I don't get in and I don't get fuzzed up or hung up with any international law problem. I don't believe the boundary lines is as important as an American life, so I don't quarrel with all the legalistic arguments. I don't say it's an extension of the war. And I've attended two or three briefings and have yet to have some doubts. I hope I can resolve them and favor the President because I normally support the President. But I have these doubts about whether in fact this may be a way to shore up the Cambodian government, or whether it is a direct effort to protect American troops and a direct effort to keep the Vietnamization program on schedule.

McCaffrey: I want to try to oversimplify the problems facing us today, but it seems to me, Senator, that our greatest problem today is a complete breakdown in communications. I've talked to you and others in the Senate and in the House, and really, they don't seem to know much more than I do. And I just have a general reporters’ view, and I just wonder if the President really is getting as much information as to what's happening in Southeast Asia as he should.

Dole: Well, I think perhaps the President is, but there's not much seepage. It may not get beyond the Oval Office many times-

McCaffrey: -I think this helps this frustration, too.

Dole: -and there are some Members who have are well-intentioned members of the House and Senate who are deeply concerned, deeply frustrated. They made commitments in advance that they would go along with advisors, go along with equipment, go along with sending South Vietnamese into Cambodia. But there they drew the line. Never thinking, in fact, based on statements previously made by some in the administration that we would send combat troops. And frankly, I find myself in this dilemma. I went along with advisors. I went along with South Vietnamese. I would go along with sending equipment to Cambodia to protect their government, but I wouldn't go as far as to send combat troops in to help the Cambodian army. And I recognize the fine distinction. We're not in Cambodia now, American troops some 12 or 13 thousand at this point, to help the Cambodian army. We are there, as I'm told, day after day, and I tend to believe it, to protect American lives and to keep the Vietnamization program on schedule. But I certainly feel it's not a criticism to say that we need to improve our communications. Between the White House and the Congress. And the American people.

McCaffrey: Forgetting the military and diplomatic ramifications in Southeast Asia, do you think that proper consideration was given to weighing the impact of such a move domestically, here in this country?

Dole: I would guess this was certainly a high priority when they made a decision, when the President finally made this difficult decision, which I give him credit for making because it was difficult. He did have to reject all political considerations, but here again, had there been some dialogue between someone in the White House and members of Congress, particularly members of the House, who have a better feel for the people than senators, because we have the six year-

McCaffrey: -who have a rapport with the people-

Dole: -They would have learned very quickly that that there would be a strong reaction. In fact, I said the night of the announcement that this would bring about an adverse reaction, a sharp downturn in support of the president's policies. I didn't invite it. I just felt it was coming. And from my state of Kansas, it came.

McCaffrey: What is your mail saying?

Dole: About 60-40 against Cambodia, many people writing who support the Vietnamization program, support President Nixon, but they weren't prepared. They thought this couldn't happen. Now I understand, of course, the rationale is that there was a buildup in these sanctuary areas 8 or 10 days prior to the announcement, that you can't telegraph your punch. And I don't ask for that. But it seems to me it's not only good practical military politics, but it's good politics period to have some input from those of us who are on the firing line, or more input.

McCaffrey: You’re a member of the United States Senate. You're a very young man. You're a handsome man, dynamic man, and you make many appearances on college campuses, and generally you're very well accepted. What is your thinking about what this war has done to the college students?

Dole: Well, I've talked with some, including five young men from Kent State University.

McCaffrey: -Congressman Stanton [unintelligible]-

Dole: Right. And they're fine young men. Two were leaders in their school and two were witnesses to the tragedy at Kent State University.

McCaffrey: One, I guess, held one of the boys who died in his arms.
Dole: Yes, it was a very moving dialogue between the students, myself, and Senator Saxbe was in his office and I appreciated the opportunity to be there. I've discussed Cambodia and Vietnam and President Nixon and Vice President Agnew with students from Kansas. And again, the ones who've been here from Kansas aren't necessarily here to kick the president around. They're not here as a Democrat or Republican. They're here because they're in the age group that must pay the price.

McCaffrey: They're here as frustrated Americans.
Dole: Frustrated Americans. So, we've had good conversations. I've listened and I've expressed my view. I pointed out what I think to be the height of folly and the so-called McGovern-Hatfield Resolution, which would cut off funds or declare war by December 31, 1970. But I have listened, and I have learned, and I think perhaps there is a greater frustration on the American campus. But I have enough confidence again in President Nixon. Certainly, he's been through the political mill. Certainly, he understands what happens when a group at least feels ignored. Maybe they haven't been. So, I would anticipate and predict more emphasis on dialogue with young people across the country.

McCaffrey: Have you been concerned or upset about what could be called in some contexts inflammatory language that's been used, even by the President, I think in a very unfortunate reference to bums on campus, and some of the things Vice President Agnew has been saying, which seemed to me come at a very sensitive, very delicate time at some other context, it might be all right. But I just wonder about in our present turbulent situation, if everybody shouldn't be more careful?

Dole: Well, I would guess this is true, and of course, particularly when the remarks are made a week or two weeks or a month or six months ago and then were followed by the tragedy we have at Kent State because you can do about anything with that you wish. I accept it as a tragedy, and I don't condone it. I don't think it. I don't want it to happen again. But there must be a realization somewhere along the line that there have been some rather sharp invectives on the other side. And again, I'm pleased with most of the students I've talked with. They're not here to shout obscenities. They're not here to burn the flag or to storm the Pentagon or the White House. They're here as frustrated young Americans.

McCaffrey: I don't think we can lump all students together, I think-

Dole: -No, right. There are some revolutionaries, and they have visited campuses in Kansas, and we have had as recently as April 20, a student union burned down in Kansas. My own fraternity house was burned down, and there's some thought that may be result of arson. So, it's not just happening in the east. It's not just happening in Ohio. It's happening in Kansas, California-

McCaffrey: -Happening in Middle America and this is why it should be very learned in-

Dole: -middle America with middle Americans.Young people from middle class families, white, black, and otherwise. So, I think perhaps I would hope, and I believe you will see a greater activity by the President and by others close to the President in trying to, not circumscribe the dialogue, but to increase it. And to do what we can do to sort of cool things at this time.

McCaffrey: It may be, as some say, that this would happen anyway, but I believe that certainly one of the root causes is the war in Vietnam.

Dole: Alright.I think it, I think in fairness, I think it was predictable. And I don't fault Vice President Agnew for saying it was predictable. I think Senator Hatfield has said recently that violence begets violence. And I would point out, too, that many of the young National Guardsmen are probably the same age as the young men and young women who are frustrated. They're not there by choice. The only difference is they have on the uniform. And they also have a breaking point. I mean, it's we accept the right of a student to break and to explode literally. So we have to give the young man [in] the National Guard or some young policeman that same right. It may not be right, but it does happen.

McCaffrey: Senator, what is your hope for bringing this war to a close?

Dole: Well, I have great confidence in the president's Vietnamization program and that's why if the action in Cambodia is necessary to keep it on schedule or even increase it or accelerate it, I hope. This is how we're going to end, but at the same time, we must continue our efforts to negotiate in Paris. Now, even though last week, this past week the North Vietnamese and Liberation Front didn't appear in Paris, they promised they would be there next week. And there's always the thought and I hope the hope present that perhaps this activity in Cambodia means they can't bluff us any longer, that the President meant what he said last year and this year that we would respond, and it might bring about the peace at the negotiating table even more quickly than Vietnamization.

McCaffrey: Suppose it works the other way. Senator. Supposing the casualties do go up. Supposing we're no closer to anything at the peace table. Where are we then?

Dole: Well, then I think if it if that happens, then I can't believe that will happen.

McCaffrey: -You don't want to believe that will happen-

Dole: I don't want to believe it will happen.

McCaffrey: Maybe that's then, that’s the problem-

Dole: Then, of course, the president's already indicated what would happen politically. But again, as I agree with him, that's his secondary importance. Whether or not a Republican or Democrat might lose his seat because of what he says about the war is perhaps secondary. But then we'd have to continue in my thought with the Vietnamization program. Maybe, as Senator Aiken suggested, maybe partly in jest, a year ago, declare victory and move on. But I just don't believe the American people will tolerate any great change in the Vietnam War. As far as escalation, I think the President-

McCaffrey: -They haven't tolerated in the lasttwo weeks-

Dole: -it's been demonstrated just what this little excursion does. Now, if it succeeds, we're now operating in about 6 sanctuaries. If it succeeds, the President will have made the right decision, obviously. If it fails, he's obviously made the wrong decision. But again, I have great confidence in his judgment.

McCaffrey: But we can't talk about the war without talking about the other domestic effects, and that is namely the inflation, which certainly can be tied directly and indirectly to the war. Are you deeply concerned with the economy? What are your people in Kansas telling you about? Your businessmen, and your bankers?

Dole: My business people, whether they're bankers or car salesman or real estate people or builders, are concerned. And they accept the fact partially and they give the President credit for trying to halt inflation. They also recognize that he did inherit some problems, and I'm not trying to blame the Democrats, but I would say that it's a matter of record that the unemployment rates were very high in ’61 through ’65. And about that time came the escalation of the war and unemployment went down. But it's back up again now to 4.4%. We've lost 5 or 6 hundred jobs in Kansas because of cuts in defense spending, but still the Congress-

McCaffrey: -we may lose more.-

Dole: - We may lose more, we may lose a base. We hope not. But again, we have. If we're going to be fair and objective, we have to accept cuts. We can't talk about cutting spending and then refuse to accept the burden, so there is concern the gross national product has gone down. But the consumer price index and wholesale price index have inched up. Maybe not as rapidly as in the past. Again, I hope that the policies of this administration start to work very soon because.

McCaffrey: -November is coming. (laughter)

Dole: Well, November is coming. I'm not running, but it's coming. And this would be a very volatile political issue.

McCaffrey: That's right. Supposing we're right in the situation we are today as far as the war is concerned, as far as our economy is concerned and this is, let's say, November 1.

Dole: Well, I would send a card of condolence to all my Republican colleagues in the House and say I hope to see you in January and then maybe pray for something to happen between November 1 and Election Day because I'm realistic. I've been in politics for 22 years and no doubt in my mind that the war and inflation are the gut issues in this campaign year.

McCaffrey: I think so. In 1958, if you remember. The Democrats made great gains in every House district where they made a gain was a surplus labor area.

Dole: They made a great gain in the Senate, too.

McCaffrey: That's right.

Dole: And we are up to over 3 million unemployed. We're not as high as we were in ’64 or ’65, but that's history. The voters are saying, ‘what is it today?’ They're not going to go back and give Nixon credit for having it less than it was under President Kennedy, for example, in ’63.

McCaffrey: They talk about new politics, but it's still a basic stomach and pocketbook.

Dole: So, I think we're, of course again, we're told the inflation policies are starting to take hold. There is confidence expressed as recently as Wednesday by Secretary of the Treasury Kennedy before the Senate Finance Committee. He indicated there was a little gloom around, but he still had faith in the policies. Well, I hope we can translate the faith into reality, because without it, I’m not certain many are going to get elected on faith alone.

McCaffrey: That's right. One of the other related subjects to the war, of course, is the very heart-rending subject of prisoners of war. And you have been as active, probably more active than anyone else, in trying to focus America's attention on the plight of these Americans who are being held in North Vietnam. Would you want to tell us how you think you've been doing and really what you've been doing.

Dole: I think we're making progress and I say this because I've had many comments from wives and parents and children. On May 1, which was law day, we filled up Constitution Hall, for example, here. We had at that time about 800 or 1000. Between that, those figures of wives, parents and children of young men who were missing an action in Southeast Asia, some in Cambodia, some in Laos, some in North Vietnam, some in South Vietnam. We're now in the Senate, a different Senator, Democrat or Republican, is making his speech every day on the prisoner of war situation, some of those on my committee. Senator Muskie and Senator Mansfield, Senator Dominick, Goldwater, and Stennis have differing views on the war, but they all agree that our prisoners are not being treated humanely. And this is a thrust, at least our hope, that we can attract attention nationwide and worldwide to these facts that are of the injured are not repatriated. They're not allowed to communicate. And that they are not treated in accord with the Geneva Conventions, which North Vietnam is a signatory to.

McCaffrey: What can an average citizen watching this program do for example?

Dole: Well, I would suggest if you're concerned, if the average citizen would write me a letter. I'm easy to address: the Senate office building, Washington, DC. I'll be here until 1974, unless something happens, so they can address letters or postcards to me, and I will transmit these either to the Swedish ambassador, or to the Viet Cong, or to Ross Perot, who's played a great role - the Dallas industrialist - or Mrs. Stockdale in California, who is the national coordinator for the League of Families. Because if we did nothing else on May 1, we, for the first time brought together wives and parents and children. And I think they've gained some sustenance from the fact that they were together, they made plans for the future, and they now have some new hope in what will happen. And they have great faith that their husbands and sons and fathers and brothers are alive and will be released. And I might add, they strongly endorsed the president's Cambodian policy. Because, as they say, maybe we have a vested interest, but if this will hasten the end of the war, it means my husband or my son or my daddy will be home a month or two months earlier.

McCaffrey: The basic thrust of course, of your campaign for the POW's is to arouse American public opinion because you people believe that Hanoi keeps very careful tabs on American public opinion is this right?

Dole: I'm convinced of this. In fact, the mothers and wives firmly believe that even the little display we had or demonstration of interest on May 1, or even a speech on the House or Senate floor, means better treatment for their loved ones. And this isn't asking much of me or any other senator or representative, if this in fact means better treatment, then we ought to be doing it not only daily but hourly.

McCaffrey: Let's pull back. We've been talking about specific things. Let's take a general look now at this Congress, which is now going into its last three or four months. What do you think this record of Congress will show when it's completed? Sometime, I'm sure, after Labor Day, or it won’t be by Labor Day.

Dole: Well, I hope it may be by Labor Day, but I'm not an optimist. I've been here 10 years and-

McCaffrey: -Never works, does it?

Dole: I keep waiting for Labor Day and I keep hearing from the fellows who were here 10 years ago it was Labor Day then. But I think we'll have a fair record. We're going to have some postal reform, electoral reform. We've had tax reform we're getting into. We're passing the appropriations bills on schedule.

McCaffrey: Much better this year than last year.

Dole: We hope to have some crime bills and here again, I think President Nixon has really had the courage of his convictions in domestic programs with postal reform, draft reform, welfare reform. And I think he has properly chastised Congress, and that includes Republicans as well as Democrats, for a little foot dragging. So, Senator Mansfield is making certain that we keep our calendar clean and I have great faith that Jerry Ford and Speaker McCormick, who is a Great American, will do the same in the house side and it means to me that we're going to have a very productive Congress, maybe not quantitative, but qualitative.

McCaffrey: What would this postal reform bill enacted into law mean to the average person who is a letter receiver?

Dole: Well, it might not mean anything for a while, and if it didn't, then we'd all be in trouble for having voted for or against it. But the average postal receiver is convinced, and I think with some justifications, the Postal Service has deteriorated. It's near state of collapse. And the American people are very hopeful and they see this as just like many see the welfare reform: as some hope for better service or for better treatment of those who are welfare recipients if it's that reform, or for better treatment of students if it's draft reform. We're very fair and objective people in America and we live on hope sometimes, and sometimes they're fulfilled and sometimes they're not.

McCaffrey: How good are your hopes today? Looking at the broad spectrum of America?

Dole: Oh, I have great faith in America. I say at home from time to time despite all our faults, and we have faults, despite all our problems, and we have problems, I have very few letters, and in fact I've had no letter in 10 years, asking how I can leave the country permanently. So, nobody in my state, despite their frustrations and their problems, have asked me to get them passage, one way passage, to some other country.

McCaffrey: And we'll be back in one minute.

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McCaffrey: I want to thank Senator Bob Dole for being my guest and this is Joseph McCaffrey thanking you for being with us.

[Outro music]

"Close-Up" with Joseph McCaffrey Interviewing Bob Dole on the Nixon Presidency and Vietnam

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