Joseph McCaffery: Senator Dole, more than half of your life has now been spent in elected office. You were first elected to the state legislature when you were 26. In less than 10 years later, you were elected to the House of Representatives. In [19]68 you were elected to your first term in the Senate. What do you find the hardest thing about being an elected public official?  Bob Dole: Well, I think it's changed, maybe because of the Watergate [Scandal], but I think the most difficult problem now may be one of credibility. I think it's there on an individual basis, but I think maybe it's Kansans. For example, my state look at the Congress. We’re pretty far down the totem pole as far as credibility and whether or not we're responsive. I think there are more cynics now in and out of politics than there were when I started, certainly since I came to Congress. There are some who have a very bad attitude toward anyone in the Congress or anyone in politics, anyone in public life, anyone who covers those in politics. But I do detect some change. I think there may be more respect for the politician. I think we've sort of rung ourselves dry on Watergate and maybe overreacted in some areas. But I think the most difficult problem now is to let the American people know that there are, for the most part, people in politics are good people.  McCaffery: Last year was a real bad year for Republican candidates, and you had a real rough challenge. Actually, for a period, the odds were against you, but you bucked the current and you won. Looking back on it now, how do you think you did it?  Dole: I don't know, as we look back in our own polling operation on September 29. Less than six weeks in the election, we were 12 points down in our own polls. And I think my opponent, Congressman [Bill] Roy, very fine opponent, a different philosophy, but a good opponent, had everything sort of going for him. I had been Chairman of the Republican National Committee- McCaffery talking over Dole: During the Nixon thing, yeah.  Dole: Right, during the Watergate [Scandal]. I had been a strong supporter of Nixon policies, and of course Nixon had left office and then we had the pardon, and then Ford, as President Ford sort of slapped export controls on wheat exports and all those things just seem to be endless. I mean, there was just one thing after another. McCaffery talking over Dole: You were getting groggy by then, weren’t you?  Dole: [laughter] And by September 29th, I was very groggy. But I don't know what really happened. I think it was my own attitude. I was ready to accept defeat and not that I wanted it, but I knew it could happen. Last year, any Republican who had a tough race could be defeated. McCaffery: You never lost an election, have you? Dole: No. But I had thoughts about losing this one. But at the same time, I think I finally, with the help of someone, relaxed and decided to go to work, and if you feel down yourself, it's hard for your people out working to really feel up. So, I think with the change in attitude, we- McCaffery talking over Dole: Got the pressure off you? Dole: -got the pressure off, really geared up, went to work, had literally hundreds and thousands of people in our state working, and we won by 15,000 votes.  McCaffery: I want to talk about politics a little later, but now you've mentioned the Nixon thing, and I would like to just touch on that. It seems to me that Mister Nixon will be a factor in next year's presidential election. Now you, of course, were national chairman from 41—[correcting himself] from [19]71 to [19]73. And so you have pretty good grassroots feel from around the country. What do you think the ‘Nixon effect’ would be next year?  Dole: I don't know. I haven't tried to measure the Nixon effect. I think is the further we get away from Watergate-- I think McCaffery talking over Dole: Does he diminish more in the--?  Dole: -Right, I think it diminishes, but I think he also becomes-- I don't, I guess the proper term more acceptable as a former president as a Republican leader, I don't see him playing any active role and I don't imagine and I'm certain he understands that he wouldn't play any active role.  McCaffery talking over Dole Do you think he’ll be at the Convention, for example, to speak next year?  Dole: I would doubt it. McCaffery talking over Dole: It’s an interesting question. Dole: That’s right, I think it is. I mean I think it is, it would say something about the man and about the party, but we're, well, a year away from that and much could happen.  McCaffery talking over Dole: Hoover underwent a transformation in the American mind.  Dole: Right, and I was pleased to just to note over the weekend that at least there was a good story about the president, former president. At least he tried to help someone and cast a different light I think on-- McCaffery talking over Dole: The Marines who were in the accident. Dole: Right, yes. McCaffery: So, Bob, how do you keep in touch with the people in Kansas?  Dole: We do it through personal visits, newsletters, radio and of course our own mail, but I think. We never know which is the most satisfactory, know the most satisfactory is personal contact. But even if you go to Kansas every weekend, you couldn't contact very many in a year's time. I haven't really gone as much this year. We're trying other ways to contact people and trying to spend more time in the legislative area. McCaffery: I want to talk to you about your work in the legislative field in just one minute, Senator Dole. [pause] Senator Dole, you serve on two of the most challenging committees in the Senate, I think the New Budget Committee and the Finance Committee. Will the Budget Committee work?  Dole: Well, I'd have to confess when I first-- It's the first few meetings I didn't think so, but I see a real opportunity and a real possibility as the proper word. That, at least on the Senate side, we have dedicated men for the most part on that committee.  McCaffery talking over Dole: Your committee seems to have gelled [both speaking-unclear] Dole: Right and have widely varying philosophies. I think it's because, partly because of Senator Muskie's leadership-- McCaffery talking over Dole: He's the chairman. Dole: He's going to make it work and credit should go to Senator Bellmon, the ranking Republican. McCaffery talking over Dole: They’ve worked together pretty well.  Dole: And they worked very closely on staff and almost every aspect. And they let us be realistic. You can only spend so much money. I think Senator Muskie realizes that to be a fact. I would say that he should be credited with the defeat of a McGovern amendment to add about $200 million of school lunch bill just a few days ago because he took the floor and said we've got to stop, we've already, I think about a billion dollars over the President’s budget request anyway, in school lunches. So, there's an understanding that, first of all, people want a reduction in spending. I think it's politically popular. But I'm not suggesting they do it for that reason. It just seems to me that on our committee, whether you're liberal or conservative or whatever. We just can't have $70 billion deficits, and we can't have $100 billion deficit next year.  McCaffery: You said it's popular. Have we reached the period finally, where a budget cutting, economy in government is an accepted popular thing? Dole: It seems to me that we have, I mean, I think in the past we've all said it to ourselves that it's popular, but you always were troubled by the special interest groups and those who wanted more for education, more for food stamps, more for highways. But if we sort of do it across the board on a fair and equitable basis. I think even those groups will tolerate cuts. They know what the alternatives are. It's going into the private market to borrow $70 billion, driving up interest rates, setting up-- McCaffery talking over Dole: Eventually turning the country into New York City.  Dole: [laughter] Right. And we may do that sometime, but I at least see some hope with the Budget Committee and I can't speak for the House committee, but-- McCaffery: That's what I wondered about. It seems to me there's a much greater dedication and commitment on the part of the Senate to its Budget Committee than I have sensed in the House. Now, can this work if only one body is really getting behind it?  Dole: It's going to be difficult and of course the real test comes this next year. The last year has been sort of a practice run, but starting this October it's really going to be a test. Those of us on the committee, if we reach some decision, we’re going to have to stick by it and try to convince our colleagues, but if we do it on the Senate side and as you suggest, it goes to the House and they say, ‘oh well, who cares? So, we've got to spend more for this and more for this. Don't worry about a few billion dollars,’ then it will probably collapse. McCaffery: As you've seen this Budget Committee and some of the meetings, do you think it's going to be tough enough?  Dole: I hope so and I believe so. That's not a total prediction. But I'm convinced that Senator Muskie and Senator Bellmon and others on that committee of a like mind are going to make it work. It's part of the most innovative thing we've done in the Senate for a long, long time, and there's a great deal of pride in that committee. We want it to work. We've got to provide the leadership. We've got to reduce the spending even though it's tough to do so. McCaffery: Political writers, Senator Dole, are speculating that the mood of the country is much more conservative now than it was five years ago, even a year ago. Do you sense this back in Kansas and then when you go in other states to speak?  Dole: I sense it. I sense the feeling that when you stand up and talk about deficits in a general way that you may not arouse many people. You talk about $70 billion deficits and projected $100 billion deficits and what happens when you have that deficit, the fact that the governments got to borrow money in competition with private business. You can really articulate it so that people understand it. They don't want it, and they fault Congress. And that's why, I think, 1 senator introduced a balanced budget amendment, which is totally unrealistic, but I assume very popular back in North Carolina. So, there is that feeling and it's growing and I think President Ford may feel this and this is why he continues to veto, veto, veto. Because I think he senses not only the desperate need for it, but the fact that is widely accepted. McCaffery: Your other committee is a tough one too, the Finance Committee. As you look out over the rest of the year, what do you expect to come out of finance? You're now on the energy tax bill.  Dole: I think this will be the big accomplishment. Hopefully it will be an accomplishment of the Finance Committee this year will be an energy bill which will provide not quotas necessarily, but incentives for production and measures for conservation. But in addition, a plowback provision requiring anybody with excess profits to plow back-- put it back into energy recovery and exploration, and also windfall profits tax. It just seems to me that's what the House lacked. All they said is we're going to slap on quotas, but they didn't really provide any other remedies, and it seems to me without a plowback provision putting the money back into the industry, or in the alternative, playing a windfall profits tax the American people aren't going to buy it. If we just provide bigger profits for bigger oil companies, we haven't solved the energy crisis.  McCaffery: Do you look for any health insurance plan out of finance this year?  Dole: Well, I'm the ranking Republican on the Health Subcommittee, Senator Talmadge of Georgia is the chairman. Right now, we're looking into -- the staff is -- into abuses of Medicare and Medicaid. We think we ought to pay a little attention to oversight and the millions and probably billions of dollars that have gone down the drain needlessly in those programs before we launch into any vast national healthcare program. There is some pressure for that. But I think if anything passes here and I don't believe anything will, it would be a limited bill which would be directed at catastrophic illness, which I think has merit. It's the so-called Long-Ribicoff bill, but it has, I think seven of us or eight of us on the committee co-sponsored and it provides some protection for those whose family may suffer for some lingering illness. It could wipe out anyone. It's not limited to poor, it touches a middle class and upper income.  McCaffery: I mentioned earlier you were a Republican National Chairman. So you have a good feel of your party nationally. Where's Ronald Reagan going?  Dole: I think Ronald Reagan [laughs], I think he's going to run. I think he's going to test the water. Again, he's in that a little more conservative stance than President Ford. He's not encumbered by any office. He doesn't have to make the difficult decisions. And he's also a very outstanding person, so he has some great qualities. I think he'll do quite well. Whether or not he'll beat President Ford in the primaries remains to be seen. It's a little early. But he's going to keep President Ford's feet to the fire in so far as conservative attitudes are concerned, and that really isn't too necessary, because Jerry Ford himself is a fairly conservative-- McCaffery: Well, that's right. That's right. You know Ford very well. You were in the House with him when he was a member, right? And he was on the Appropriations Committee. And then you were there when he was elected the leader over Charlie Halleck. You dealt with him quite closely while you were national chairman over here from over here in the Senate. What kind of a man is Gerald Ford? I regard Gerald Ford as a conservative. Dole: No doubt about it, I think you'd have to stretch it to say anything else. I mean you-- McCaffery: Then why is he not acceptable to conservatives? Or at least some conservatives?  Dole: Well, I think in some areas he has to make a broad national decision. He can't appeal to one region and that will upset that region. But if you look at Jerry Ford's record in the House, if you looked at it very closely, you might come away thinking he was too conservative. Now maybe not for today's time, but maybe in during his time in the House he was too conservative for the mood of the country at that time. On the other hand, Ronald Reagan has this advantage. He's been an administrator, he's been a governor, he's never cast a vote on a federal program or never had to advocate a national program. That's an advantage he has. But I've just recently agreed to serve on the Ford Advisory Council with Mel Laird and ten others and Bryce Harlow. And so, I've committed myself. Not that I oppose Ronald Reagan, but it just seems to me that President Ford deserves election, not reelection, because he's never been elected. He's done a good job. He is a conservative. He's a decent, honest person. I think there is this pretty good reservoir of support for him.  McCaffery: Bob Dole, as you know the man, how would you describe Gerald Ford? Dole: I said after the election last November that what he needed was just an extension of leadership. I said at the time, much to my chagrin later, that he had to discard- McCaffery talking over Dole: [laughter] You’ve said a lot of things in your career that you've regretted later, haven’t you? Dole: [laugh] -- that he had to discard the Boy Scout image. And I heard from every scout leader in the country saying ‘I didn't know you were against Boy Scouts. I wouldn't have voted for you.’ McCaffery talking over Dole: [laughter] Lost that vote! Dole: I didn't mean it in that sense. [continued Interviewer laughter] I was trying to pay the Scouts a compliment. But Jerry Ford's just a nice guy, and he had to -- I think he had to take one more step and he's done that. He's -- I don't mean he has to be tough or nasty -- but he's demonstrated some leadership capacity in the past few months he was lacking early on, and I think it sort of sums up, as I've said, he really has gotten the feel of the Presidency the past few months, no doubt about it. He enjoys it, and it just seems to me that he's going to grow in stature every month. Now if we have some economic turnaround again, that could all go down the drain. He's a realist, but it seems now he's either climbing or creeping up and should be in good shape next year. McCaffery: What about Rockefeller, Senator Dole? Where do you see Rockefeller? Let's say a year from today, which would be the latter part of July. Right? Right? Dole: Pretty near convention of time. Well, I really haven't been able to determine where Vice President Rockefeller will be, I think it, of course, depends on President Ford. I think this may be another reason for the, maybe not the Reagan effort, but the conservative effort to keep reminding for that there are those conservatives. Now I don't know how many when you only have 18% who say they're Republicans. I don't know how you can divide that too often and have anything of any substance. But I think Rocky's in doubt right now. I think if you had to say today to write an insurance policy, he might be on the ticket. I don't think I would want to issue the policy. McCaffery: Looking across the aisle, how do you shape up the Democratic candidates? Dole: I think they have at least a dozen candidates for Vice President. [Interviewer laughs] And maybe they'll be one for president before their convention. McCaffery: What is your thinking about Teddy Kennedy? Dole: Well, I think Teddy Kennedy would be presidential timber. I think he's a candidate, but I'm not privy to any of Kennedy's views, except those expressed on the floor and publicly. But it seems to me that he does not want to be a candidate, from what you can read and what you can hear. But he may not have that choice. He may, in effect, be drafted, of course he can turn that down. But the next step from Kennedy is a long step down. McCaffery: Do you see George Wallace hurting the Democrats or perhaps hurting the Republicans? Dole: Well, if he runs as a Democrat, he hurts the Democrats, but if he runs as an Independent or third party, again, it's going to take away some of the moderate to conservative voters, Democrats, Republicans and Independents, who might vote for our candidate, whether it be Ford or Reagan. Now, I think he would hurt Reagan less in that situation because again, Reagan has this very conservative image where Gerald Ford, President Ford, who is a conservative, hasn't yet achieved that point. McCaffery: You have to have more than conservatives, though, to win, won't you? Naturally. Dole: Oh, right. No question about it. I've read as you have William Rushers latest, but they're not enough people out there and maybe you put the economic conservatives and the social conservatives together. Maybe that is a majority and 59% of the people indicate they are conservative. But you've got to get at least half of them agreeing on the same candidate. McCaffery: Senator Dole, I have a final question I want to ask you in just one minute. [pause] Senator Dole next week is the 1st of August and the Senate has been in since the 14th of January and still New Hampshire doesn't have full representation in the Senate. As you look ahead, do you see any solution at all of this impasse? Dole: Well, I've talked to my friends on the Democratic side who say we're never going to get Senate back to New Hampshire. And we think on the other side that we'll hold the Democratic votes, that they'll never be able to shut off debate. So that puts you in almost an impossible situation. There really must be some way out of it. I think it's become an embarrassment to the leadership, both Democratic and Republican leadership, not so much our-- McCaffery: I think it's kind of a personal thing now. With some of the members in the Senate. Dole: Right, we don't believe that [Senator] Mansfield offers a compromise at all. Now, it may be that we may finally suggest that we let the judiciary in somehow, let them make a recount. Maybe we get a point of panel of three noted jurists around the country, but I don't see any resolution right now. It just seems to me that the Democratic leadership just sort of hopes it will go away. I'm not convinced that it will go back to New Hampshire either. So, it just seems to me that we haven't faced up to it yet in the Senate. McCaffery: You're on a treadmill, you may be there for a long time. Dole: We may be there and maybe there will be a recall statute enacted in New Hampshire in the meantime and they can work out something there and have another election next year, I don't know how they could do it? McCaffery: Senator Bob Dole, thank you very much for being my guest on ‘McCaffrey's Washington.’ Dole: Thank you, Joe.