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TRANSCRIPT

All copyright and right of copyright in this transcript and in the broadcast are owned by CBS. This transcript may not be copied or reproduced or used in any way (other than for purposes of reference, discussion and review) without the written permission of Columbia Broadcasting System, Inc.

CBS REPORTS "The POWs: Pawns of War" Part II as broadcast over the CBS TELEVISION NETWORK Tuesday, June 29, 1971 10:00-11:00 PM, EDT

With CBS News Correspondent Walter Cronkite

PRODUCED BY CBS NEWS

EXECUTIVE PRODUCER: Ernest Leiser

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WALTER CRONKITE: These are American prisoners of war in Hanoi. Political pawns in the negotiations for peace in Indochina. And both subjects, and objects, of a growing, coordinated campaign of concern.

MRS. JOAN VINSON: We have tried to have television exposure, newspaper, magazines, we've had trips throughout the world by family members appealing to the Communists.

ROSS PEROT: The level of concern about these men is tremendous. By conservative accounts, over fifty million people in our country have participated in campaigns expressing concern for these men.

VICE PRESIDENT AGNEW: Your Write Hanoi Campaign has done much to bring this subject to world attention in a way that we hope tells Hanoi and its Communist allies that their treatment of our men does no pass muster in the community of nations.

DEFENSE SECRETARY LAIRD: Those who were held in Southeast Asia and their families know that they are not forgotten today, and I can assure you, Mr. Chairman, we will not let them down.

SENATOR EDWARD KENNEDY: The statements and comments about concern of the prisoners has increased with the - this Administration and yet the solution to returning the prisoners has come no closer, and the point that I feel so strongly about and concerned about is that there's been great hopes and expectations built upon the wives and the children and the families of the prisoners.

MRS. DENTON: I knew he was going to war and I knew he could have been killed, but somehow, I had never really thought about him as a prisoner. That was July, 1965, and at that time, I had high hopes that by Christmas he would be home. Well, now, it's almost six years later, and at this time, I have less hope that he'll be home for Christmas.

MRS. NELSON: I just keep busy. And the hopes get slimmer ... that he's there.

CRONKITE: The anguish and suffering of the prisoners' families, the conduct of the campaign of concern, the controversy over the POWs as an issue, and the prospects for release of the men in the camps - these are the subjects of our broadcast tonight.

ANNOUNCER: This is the second ot two CBS Reports: "The POWs: Pawns of War," with CBS News Correspondent Walter Cronkite.

( ANNOUNCEMENT)

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prisoners in there 18 hours before the raid, so what - for what purposes were the raids taken? To try, I think, to build up a greater sense of hope and expectation among a lot of Americans, particularly the families of the prisoners of war. That was - that was a sham.


CRONKITE: David Culhane made a sampling of the prisoners' families. He found that they look back on Son Tay with reservations.

MRS. HARTNEY: The Son Tay? Well, it boosted our morale a little bit to think at least they do care, they really do care. And if they had gotten prisoners out, it would have been an entirely different situation.

MRS. MULLIGAN: My first reaction was thank God they'd finally done something. My second reaction was what a horrible thought that they must resort to attempting this.

MRS. GRUBB: I thought it was dreadful to send men in on a cause that was lost before it even began. There were no prisoners there.

MRS. McDANIEL: It frightened me. Because I would hate to think that this is how we must get our men out of the camps. I hope we can find a better way.

MRS. DENTON: I just can't believe that they could - had the men been there, that they would have gotten many of them out alive. It proved one thing to me, that we're pretty desperate as to how we're going to get those men out if we would attempt such a mission. I think the men who went in on the mission were marvelously brave. And I'm certainly grateful to them for risking their lives. But I hope that we will not attempt another such rescue.

CRONKITE: Some of the campaign of concern for the POWs, here and abroad, has been organized and orchestrated by the Administration. Some has been spontaneous and local. The latest activity, undertaken with White House backing, is a $25 million global print and TV ad campaign, to start next month. It is sponsored and underwritten by the Advertising Council, the ad industry's organization for public service causes. However, it has drawn some opposition within the industry as being politically motivated. Frederic Papert, the head of one major agency, has made public letters of protest against the campaign saying, "No one thinks the prisoners themselves would gain anything from it." The ad campaign is just one outgrowth of the President's major policy shift on the POWs, the May, 1969, decision to, quote, "go public" on the issue.

The widening campaign of concern for the prisoners has taken many forms in the past two years. For example, big parades - this one in Torrance, California, on Armed Forces Day last month.

For example, small town fairs - this one in Brea, California, this month. High School students adopted missing Marine Captain Steve Hanson as their rallying symbol. Hanson, a helicopter pilot and

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MR. SEAHOLET. Anything that we can do to - to further world opinion with respect to these men's plight means a step forward. We've tried many, many things and we would do most anything to attempt to secure some new information or release.

CRONKITE: Doing most anything included standing outside the site of the peace talks in Paris, where the prisoner issue was on the agenda for the 114th session. Hanoi's delegate, Xuan Thuy, arrived. But the presence of the families accomplished little. Nothing happened at the session to speed the return of the POUs.

Nevertheless, the effort goes on, much of it directed from Washington out of offices donated by the American Legion to an organization called the National League of Families of American Prisoners and Missing in Southeast Asia. Bob Schieffer talked with the national coordinator Joan Vinson, whose own husband is missing.

SCHIEFFER: Has any of this activity had any effect, do you think, on the North Vietnamese?

MRS. VINSON: Well, I very definitely think that it has had effect, because up until December of last year, only 100 men had ever been heard from. Now, 339 men are identified by the North Vietnamese, which is some progress. And they are letting reporters into North Vietnam and have photographed a few of the men, and it does appear that the few who have been photographed, that their conditions have improved. Because, you know, three years ago, they were parading the men through the streets of Hanoi calling them "war pirates" or "criminals," and threatening to try them as war criminals. Now, we see pictures of them playing basketball, strumming on a guitar, being interviewed. So I think that, you know, in that way, that their conditions have improved, at least, as I said, of the ones that we have seen photographed.

SCHIEFFER: We get reports from some of the families, and I'm interested to know if you also get reports, that some of them are becoming disillusioned because both sides seem to be using the prisoners as political pawns. Do you, in fact, get reports like that?

MRS. VINSON: Yes, I get - the families are very upset. They, you know, feel that they have been true and loyal, through these many years and that the men have been, and it has been seven years for some men to have been prisoners. And for their families, you know, to have lived all this period of time, I - they are extremely upset and - and you know, they just wonder how much longer the men can survive.

SENATOR DOLE: I've related to the President frankly a number of times that there's a change in attitude among the families of the prisoners of war and missing in action.

CRONKITE: Senator Robert Dole, Republican National Chairman, is sometimes a spokesman for, always a supporter of, the Administration. But he, too, has noted the change in families' feelings.

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DOLE: I think a year ago, very frankly, they really felt that we were on to something. There was real hope for their husbands. And we had the letter writing campaigns. Ross Perot had been around the world. Frank Borman has been sent around by the President. We tried the International Red Cross. Families had flown to Paris. Senators had gone to Paris. You see, they've tried everything now. But they're looking for another straw and I don't fault the mothers or the wives or the children. And the straw is now, maybe we ought to fix a deadline. Not all say that, not even a majority, maybe ten percent, but you see this shifting in attitude: We've tried everything else and maybe the only way we can get our husbands back, or our sons back, or our fathers back is to set a deadline. And they are changing. They love their President, but they love their husbands and fathers more, of course.

CRONKITE: One new group of families seeking a quick U.S. pullout because "they love their husbands and fathers more" is called: POUs-MIAs for Peace. Barbara Mullen, whose husband is missing, and Dehlia Alvarez,whose brother is captive, spoke with Bill Kurtis.

MISS ALVAREZ: My brother is very symbolic, because he is - symbolizes the length of the war, and he's been a prisoner since 1964. According to reports and various studies, my brother is the longest-held prisoner of war in American history. And I consider that a very inglorious honor, but he has it.

KURTIS: Why is a movement like yours now making the turn? Why are some of the families now coming to you at this stage of the game?

MISS ALVAREZ: At this stage - because they realize that they have lost the hope and the faith in the President. And they realize that it's going to be them, as those who are so personally involved in the war, who is going to end it. I think it's going to be my responsibility along with the American people to apply the pressure upon the llixon Administration and the Congress to set a definite withdrawal date to end the war.

MRS. MULLEN: We're trying to organize some of the prisoners of war families who I know - there are a lot of them who are feeling very, very frustrated now, but they feel a little isolated in their view. And we want to give them a chance to kind of rally around someone.

KURTIS: Why now? Why your movement at this time? Just a natural evolution that you've finally come to this conclusion?

MRS. MULLEN: Well, I suppose so. I think that in our society we can do things as an individual, but much better as a group.

KURTIS: Do you think it will help?

MRS. MULLEN: Yes. I think that it will grow and I think that it - that we'll be successful. I intend to be successful. My children and I haven't had my husband with us on Christmas since 1964 and I want him this year.

(ANNOUNCEMENT)

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CRONKITE: As we have seen, the American prisoners and missing men have become a political issue. As we have also seen, they have become an emotional, human issue, especially for some 1,600 U.S. families. The burden for the families has been almost as heavy as the burden of the men themselves. For the 453 men the Pentagon lists as captured in the Indochina war, it also lists 1152 as missing - four more than listed last week. So a large majority of the families bear the double grief of not only having their men absent - casualties of war - but also of not knowing whether they are living or dead.

Even for those families whose men are alive, theirs is a half- existence. Correspondent David Culhane talked with a number of the wives and mothers.

MRS. DENTON: I knew he was going to war and I knew he could have been killed, but somehow, I had never really thought about him as a prisoner. And I think it's like anything, we never expect the worst to happen to us. So I was in shock. I did expect, though, that the war would be over before very long and that he would be home. I know at that time, that was July, 1965, and at that time, I had high hopes that by Christmas he would be home. Well, now, it's almost six years later, and at this time, I have less hope that he'll be home for Christmas.

CULHANE: Tell me how you first found out that your husband had been shot down.

MRS. BRADY: Well, the Navy Department came at seven o'clock on January 19, 1967, and notified me that my husband's plane had gone down. They had no information at that time as to whether he was a prisoner or not. It was some 15 months later that I found out that he was a prisoner,

CULHANE: 15 months?

MRS. BRADY: Yes, it was a torturous 15 months.

CULHANE: When did you first hear from your husband?

MRS. BRADY: Well, I did not get a letter from him until almost four years after he went down. This was this past November, I got my first letter, and in the four and a half years he's been down, I've only had six letters, And from what he says, I can only believe that he's had one of my letters and no packages.

CULHANE: How often do you write?

MRS. BRADY: Once a month. We have a form that we are allowed to write seven lines and that's it. What can one say in seven lines, really?

CULHANE: Is it the same way for him, the short seven lines?

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to go out and earn it." You know, this is what he hired on to do. But my feeling is when the government commits men to a war, they should certainly have some way of getting them out, or some way of bringing it to an end or figuring out how to get them released if they're captured.

MRS. GARTLEY: If we could feel at this point, as we tried to feel two and three years ago, that it was for something, if there was some cause, then we would feel, I think most of us are patriotic and we feel that it was a terrible thing but our boys were being sacrificed for a reason. But with the President continually saying he is getting out, then what is the reason? If it is nothing more than support of this particular government in South Vietnam, I think most of us feel that government, with its questionable morality is not worth it. And it's not worth another day in prison for my son.

MRS. DENTOIT: You know, professional military men by tradition have never had political opinions, or have never expressed them. They are serving at the will of the people. And I prefer to continue in that tradition. But we are so intimately involved in this that it's - we must think about it and we must wonder. And I hope - well, I never want to have to get into the political, or certainly not qualified to get into any of the diplomacy of it, but I feel that all the families of the prisoners have to do the thing which is best for their men at this point. They've been there so long, we've got to get them out of there. And I can only pray that both governments, both sides, all sides in the war, will come to some agreement, so that all the men can go home, not just the prisoners, but all the men can go home and the killing can stop and we can live at peace with everybody. And at peace with ourselves.

ANNOUNCER: "The POWS: Pawns of War," will continue after this message.

(ANNOUNCEMENT)

CRONKITE: The Senate's mandate last week for an end of American involvement in Indochina - if the prisoners are released - puts new pressure on President Nixon to announce a withdrawal date. But as it was written by Majority Leader Mansfield, it is a statement of Senate policy; it is not binding law. Even if the House had not rejected it yesterday, lir. Nixon could have refused to implement its nine-month deadline. And present indications are he will reject any such deadline.

It also now appears that the Administration is de-emphasizing the POW issue it has espoused so ardently during the last two years, and is putting more emphasis on the ability of Saigon to survive. Republican National Chairman Robert Dole indicated as much in an interview with Bob Schieffer.

DOLE: We have to be very candid about it, we don't want to stay there just for the prisoners, we don't want to get out just for the

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prisoners. They're very important, but they represent less than one-half of one percent of the Americans who've died in South Vietnam.

SCHIEFFER: Are you saying we're not in Vietnam now just for the sake of the prisoners?

DOLE: It's a tough thing to say, and I know the families of the prisoners are concerned about this, but our objective, of course, has been to give the South Vietnamese government some reasonable opportunity for self-determination. The objective is still there, that's the primary objective. That's why we've shed so much blood and treasure in South Vietnam.

SCHIEFFER: What about the charge that the Administration is using the prisoner issue to slow down the American withdrawal and give the South Vietnamese more time to build up their forces? Is that right?

DOLE: I don't really think so, and I try to be objective aside from politics, and I recognize that whether we like it or not, the POW-MIA problem is now getting involved in domestic politics and has, of course, been involved in international politics. But I think the President, when he first announced the Vietnamization program, I think he has a plan, I think he has followed it. I think he is concerned and remains concerned about the prisoners of war and the missing in action. He said so at every press conference. I still think the President's hopeful that there can be some negotiation of prisoner release and also of other issues, and get us out of Southeast Asia much quicker than some of the critics may think.

CRONKITE: Congressional doves do not share Dole's optimism. Bob Schieffer asked Senator Edward Kennedy whether Administration plans would get the prisoners out.

KENNEDY: In no way. There's only one way to get the release of the prisoners and that's to end the war. To announce a time definite for the withdrawal of the last American troops. And history has shown this. There hasn't been a time in recent history where we've seen the release of significant numbers of prisoners while hostilities are continuing, and there will not be now. And, that is why I think if this Administration is truly serious about this issue, then we've got to end the violence. We've got to announce the termination, and then I think we'll see the prisoners released.

SCHIEFFER: The other side says they will discuss the release of the prisoners if we set a withdrawal date. They don't say, "We'll release the prisoners."

KENNEDY: Well, we know for sure they are not going to be released under present policy. We know that there's the best chance available to see them released by halting the hostilities and

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announcing a time definite. There would be no reason for the North Vietnamese to continue to hold the prisoners. Absolutely none. What possible reason would there be for them to continue to hold the prisoners after we indicate that we're going to be - withdraw from it. Absolutely none.

CRONKITE: In the Mansfield Amendment the Senate did seek to set a terminal date, nine months hence, if the prisoners were let go. Correspondent Schieffer talked to Paul McCloskey, one of the most outspoken doves in the House, about it.

McCLOSKEY: I think it's the most encouraging thing to have happened in the Congress since we repealed the Gulf of Tonkin resolution six months ago. I think for the first time we've made it clear, at least the Senate has made it clear to the President, that the POWs are the only condition that we want to insist on as a price of our withdrawal.

SCHIEFFER: What sort of an effect will that have on the U.S. negotiations in Paris?

MCCLOSKEY: Well, I don't think there's been any mystery about the increasing public opinion here in Paris, for a long time, I don't think it's going to affect the negotiations at all. Those negotiations have no chance of success until our negotiators agree that we insist only on the POWs as the price of our withdrawal. As long as we say we're not going to leave until you let South Vietnam alone, they're never going to negotiate with us.

SCHIEFFER: You don't feel that the Senate has denied the President a bargaining chip at the negotiating table?

McCLOSKEY: I think the North Vietnamese, if there's anything they understand, it's that public opinion is forcing the Congress into accepting the fact that we have to get out of Vietnam. And that the only thing that the Americans will fight for and will fight - I myself feel very strongly, we should fight if necessary to get those POWs back - that's the only thing worth fighting for in South Vietnam.

CRONKITE: After the Mansfield vote, Bob Schieffer went back to Senator Dole to get his assessment of the amendment's importance.

DOLE: I don't really think it does a lot. I think it sort of urges the President to carry out the policies that he's already carrying out. Of course, it's all subject to the release of prisoners, I think this is the important point, if there is one in the Mansfield Amendment, it indicates a great concern we have for the American prisoner of war and the American missing in action in Indochina. I think that's the real impact of the Mansfield Amendment.

SCHIEFFER: Do you think it hurt the U.S. negotiating position in any way for the Senate to take a stand like this?

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